Speaker 0 00:00:08 Welcome to the breakout growth podcast, where Sean Ellis interviews, leaders from the world's fastest growing companies to get to the heart of what's really driving their growth. And now here's your host, Sean Ellis,
Speaker 1 00:00:24 Ethan Gar. And I spoke with Phillipe Ingleburn co-founder and CEO of tuttare TV, as well as this client, Jamie Fontana, senior director of e-commerce at VRE clothing and apparel. So this was a bit different from our usual format, but TV advertising is something that Ethan and I were exposed to early on in our careers. And we wanted to see what's changed. Then what might be valuable for teams looking for new channels to explore? So Ethan, do you think,
Speaker 2 00:00:51 I think a lot's changed since our days
[email protected]. That's for sure. It's hard as really able to turn TV advertising into something that resembles digital advertising and a lot of ways and way back then when you and I were at uproar, we weren't directly involved in the TV campaigns, but I do remember our commercials being a huge gamble for the company between the creative and the ad buying. It was a multimillion dollar investment with really very little, very little visibility into value in ROI. And it seems like now that's all different. Yep.
Speaker 1 00:01:19 Um, after the money pit that we saw, uh, TV advertising in the, in the.com days. So it wasn't just uppers. Really, everybody was just pouring money into that. I have to admit, I was a little bit skeptical about what, what TV can look like in an ad mix when you're really highly measurable and analytically and test driven, but it's not surprising that, um, that the transition has taken place. I mean, you've seen a lot of people move into video and do really well with video advertising seems to be the next step. And that was something we discussed a lot, uh, with in, in the conversation. So VRE in particular, I thought it was interesting because it's one of my favorite brands. And as they looked at TV as something that they were really in the end of their testing cycle, um, and, and really happy with the results, but they wanted to make sure that it really was highly measurable and easily, um, optimized, and it seems to be working for them.
Speaker 1 00:02:15 So tuttare, that's, that's one of the things they really focus on that they are unlocking the data side of the TV equation. And I think for our audience that can be game changing. Um, in particular, one of the things that I, that I think is really interesting is that, uh, Phillipe comes from the digital world where he was, uh, he had, he had the app, uh, Shizam where it was about, you know, identifying audio. And so anyone who has been in an app based business and then moves into TV advertising to me, has a lot more credibility than someone who maybe has been purely on the, uh, TV advertising side of things the whole time. And they're just trying to make a case for it. He actually is like tackling, I think a really interesting challenge there. And, um, you know, and I, and I think that really maps to the challenge that a lot of companies have in trying to find a profitable, scalable channel. You just need one really scalable, profitable channel. And if you can make TV work, that could be that channel for you. And the fact that they've gotten it to a point where with a budget of around a hundred thousand dollars, you can actually get that answer. That's super
Speaker 2 00:03:22 Powerful. Yeah. I mean, a hundred thousand dollars is real money, but it's a, it's a amount that smaller businesses can really think about. I mean, what he was describing, it means that you can really level the playing field and smaller companies can seriously consider using TV to challenge established brands, which I think is pretty awesome.
Speaker 1 00:03:41 Yep. So we'll definitely want to tune in and I, and I think if you have an open mind going into it, you're going to be surprised. But before we get started, I wanted to remind everyone that, uh, this week, our team at go practice launched our free gross skills assessment test. And so I've been talking about this for a while. It used to be part of the paid course, but we're now making it available for free for anyone. And it makes, it gives you the ability to really understand where your strengths are and where your weaknesses are around driving growth. And then that's really critical for filling in those weaknesses and building out the well-rounded skillset that's needed to be successful in a growth role. So you can check that
[email protected] slash S a T. And we actually are doing a product launch on Wednesday. Um, I think by the time this episode comes out, it will have already, um, we've come, it'll probably come out on Thursday. So, um, if you want to go give us some support on, on product hunt. Um, that's great. But, uh, more importantly, I think this is just a great way for you to, to build out your skillset. So again, check it
[email protected] slash S a T S a T stands for skills assessment test. So Ethan, should we jump in?
Speaker 2 00:04:52 Yeah, I just wanted to say though that I having taken the skills assessment test, uh, recently it is really a great way to kind of see where you, where you gotta, you know, tune up your skills. Um, I mean, I got it a hundred percent as you can expect Sean, but no, I'm just
Speaker 1 00:05:05 Kidding. I did not get a hundred percent, so
Speaker 2 00:05:08 Yeah, I got a few areas to work on, but I think it's just a really great way for people to kind of see where they are and what they can improve. So, yeah, let's, let's jump into this episode was really fun. Absolutely. Let's do it.
Speaker 1 00:05:26 All right. Hey, Felipe and Jamie, welcome to the breakout growth podcast.
Speaker 3 00:05:31 All right, guys. Hi. Happy to be here. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:05:33 We're, we're excited to have you on. And of course I'm joined by my cohost. Ethan. Welcome Ethan.
Speaker 2 00:05:38 Hey Sean. Hey Felipe. And Jamie. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:05:41 So this obviously has given you a bit of a departure from how we normally do these interviews. Normally it's Ethan and I talking to one person now there's four of us today. So just bear with us if it's a little bit different, but I think, I think it's going to be really great. So, um, it would be great to start by having maybe each of you talk a bit about what your individual companies do, maybe a bit of your journey on how you got there. And, uh, and then we'll get into really the core topic of this podcast, which is growth, but maybe we'll start with you Phillipe. Um, you actually launched a Zam and, uh, it, maybe you could start with kind of how you went from Shizam to Atari and, uh, and how it all fits together.
Speaker 2 00:06:25 Yeah. So I already, um, so my name is flipping with Brecht. Um, my accent is Belgium, so you don't, you don't wonder about this for the next hour. Um, and I'm, uh, one of the founders and CEO of the tare. So for those of you who don't know Tara yet, uh, we're a data and analytics company focused on the measurement and, uh, buying off TV advertising, um, obviously does both linear and streaming TV. We'll talk more about that later, what it all means. Uh, but so it's kind of the one thing, and I like to say, it's the one thing we do really well. Um, uh, how I got to the Atari, um, like, like many things in life, like a direct personal experience. Uh, many years ago I was running a company called true car, uh, which is an automotive, uh, information service. Um, and so as part of that journey at true car, we eventually got into TV advertising, uh, which was very scary, at least for me back then, right.
Speaker 2 00:07:27 Uh, the states that the old saying that, uh, you know, half of the money is spent, which is not the problem with is that you don't know which health. And so, so lo and behold, that, that, that ended up being true. Uh, at least sending up that initial foray into TV advertising at true car. Um, but it was when we had, um, data science, people that they could look at the TV advertising campaign and going through the numbers that we figured out that actually TV advertising, uh, can, can be measured, can be optimized, um, uh, which led to tare. And I'll, I'll stop here because I also suspect we'll get into more details later. Uh, um, yeah, that's it,
Speaker 1 00:08:05 But it gives, it gives a great introduction to at least what, uh, what your role is in it. So you, your company is working with Jamie's company, which is, uh, vari am I pronouncing it correctly? I've been wearing the clothes for, for a long time, but I don't think I've actually pronounced
Speaker 4 00:08:21 It. Yeah. So V Ori is the best way that I can say to say it. Yeah. It's, it's, it's a mouthful for sure. No,
Speaker 5 00:08:29 You're not. Don't worry about it.
Speaker 1 00:08:32 Right. But I do love the clothes. Like I was saying before we got started here, my favorite article of clothing is sorry, a jacket I got for my birthday last September. And ever since then, it's like, I, uh, I'm, I'm constantly on the lookout for some awesome stuff from you guys.
Speaker 4 00:08:47 Yeah. Well, we love to hear it. I, um, uh, you know, VRE, if, if not everyone knows you already is an new perspective on performance apparel. Um, we designed clothes that are built to move in and style for your everyday life. So really drawing inspiration from where the brand actually originated, which is here in coastal, Southern California. Um, so people living dynamic versatile lives, and I've been fortunate to be at the URI for two and a half years now, I'm our senior director of e-commerce. And, um, I lead kind of all things e-commerce growth and user growth related for the full channel, but I work with honestly so many incredible people that really are contributing to that overall growth. Um, it's a very kind of collaborative role where you're working with digital and technology and product and customer service and brand. Um, and so within my team, we're actually working with tuttare on TV advertising and testing into that as a channel.
Speaker 4 00:09:48 And then prior to, uh, prior to VRE, I worked in another startup as stance where I was, um, working in performance marketing and then in e-commerce. And then prior to that, um, traditional CPG actually working at Frito-Lay doing, uh, their kind of first ad direct to consumer snack brand, um, which online grocery is very big now, but it was really just taking off then. And, um, and, uh, the marketing associated with kind of the online grocery direct channel. So just really excited to be here today, um, and really talk about TV because we've had such a great journey thus far with Phillipe and the tuttare team. Awesome.
Speaker 1 00:10:24 Well, I'm also a big fan of stance, a sock drawers full of M and a, I probably would be a big brand of snack foods if I could eat them and not be a thousand pounds. So
Speaker 2 00:10:38 Can I ask a question? Can I ask a question for Jamie as well as there are no rules, since you asked about the pronunciation of the name? I would love to know the origin.
Speaker 4 00:10:50 Oh, it's finished for mountain. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So it's kind of this idea of, you know, the, the, the rise, the shine, the climb of the mountain and the, the peak and the, um, the overall shine you get in the view from the pinnacle, ultimately a finished background
Speaker 5 00:11:07 Or no, it's really just, you know, the word and the representation
Speaker 4 00:11:10 Of it, I think is really what, you know, drew, drew Jo, um, our CEO to, to the overall brand name. Wow.
Speaker 1 00:11:17 I love it. I love it. I mean, it's kind of fun when it's, when it's, uh, when it's a little bit different and, and, uh, yeah, again, like I think it, you know, it all starts with quality and you have amazing, um, clothing and quality, but, uh, Ethan, yeah, let me get, come on back into the conversation. So I'll tell
Speaker 2 00:11:35 The audience that my, my accent is New Jersey, so I want to make sure I get that in there. Um, but often
Speaker 1 00:11:42 Often voted the sexiest accident in the United States,
Speaker 2 00:11:45 Not just by you, but, uh, years ago, Sean Nye, we started our career. I started my career, uh, at uproar.com with Sean and, uh, the company invested in really costly TV campaigns. And you alluded this to, of this already, but we had like, basically zero ability to measure ROI. We did like a pre and post survey basically to see if people had had brand recognition. It sounds like things have come a long way since then. Uh, so can you tell us a little bit about what's changed and how to Tari helps companies like vari? Yeah. Oh gosh. I'm just liking this big question I can talk about for a long time. So I'm gonna try to compact this. I mean, obviously TV in general, not just TV advertising has changed a lot, uh, and I don't need to tell you about it. You're experiencing it everyday yourself, meaning right.
Speaker 2 00:12:33 We watch less cable and broadcast or satellite TV and then more streaming TV. And by the way, it's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a one-way ticket. You know what I mean? So we don't, we're not going to go back, you know, obviously cable and broadcast, as we know today may simply not exist five years from today. Um, that's one, but I think in TV advertising that has, uh, amongst other things brought about some really, really positive changes. Um, both for advertisers, I find viewers, um, and, and, and look, if I had to bucket them, it would be around, uh, measurement it, be around buying budgets and possibly creative. So, so if I, if I kind of were to elaborate on each of these points, um, uh, starting with measurement look the way in which we measure TV today, or the way in which we can measure TV today, uh, is it's way more accurate.
Speaker 2 00:13:26 It's way more timely to give you an example at the tare. If we measure TV, it's all on the next day basis arrests in your experience, uh, Ethan, that was probably two weeks right before he got a report back. And it's also very granular. We can say which publisher work and what time of the day worked or didn't work. And so we can do all of that. It's all on the back of more data, better data, stronger methodologies, you name it. So the measurement is just, honestly, it's, it's a, it's a night and day. Um, the buying process is also very different. We mostly remove the opaqueness in it, right. Uh, so it's very transparent. Uh, but, um, but if you can measure then of course you can also buy in a very optimized manner, right. Um, uh, uh, concepts like bid optimizations, uh, even for cable TV are, are definitely holding up today.
Speaker 2 00:14:13 Uh, and we do it in a, in a, what I would broadly call it agile manner. Um, so I think we just looked back a year ago when COVID-19 struck the country, uh, the media markets for a major turmoil. And we had some of our clients like in maiden cookware, kind of literally, I hate to use the word taking advantage of this really kind of leaning into the market, seeing what inventory was mispriced and, and, and scooping it up for literally pennies on the dollar. Uh, um, and, and so, so, so that's another way in which you kind of change the market, uh, budgets as well. Uh, look, when I was a TV advertiser, the entry ticket was about million dollars, right? It was, they always say it used to be a big budget brand privilege of fortune 500 privilege, most companies who start TV advertising, uh, with the tare.
Speaker 2 00:15:03 Um, yeah, they'll start with as little as a hundred thousand dollars. I know that's still a lot of money, but, but that's actually not less than 3 million. Yeah, exactly. Right. Um, and look, and if TV advertising doesn't work for you, you haven't lost your shirt or the company, right. It's kind of like, that's what it is. And then the same with creatives. I mean, look, uh, gone are the days that you would shell out quarter million dollars for one commercial, right. I remember back in the true car, Dave, and we've made that first commercial and, you know, it was not only a lot of money, but it was also a lot of what I would say emotional capital, right? We couldn't, we couldn't agree on what the right creative wasn't nowadays for a few thousand dollars, you can make two or three creatives. You don't need to do focus groups. You don't need to do run service. You just run them for small dollars and let the market decide which one is the better performing one. Right. And so my example there is it's calm and I think many people listening, uh, today, like, uh, they, they, they may remember the, or they may have seen the calm commercial right. Where he just listened to 30 seconds of resonance.
Speaker 1 00:16:06 I remember it coming on specifically during the debates and, uh, when everyone is all on, on pins and needles. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:16:12 And there've been public on this that cost them a whopping $200 go figure. So to try to summarize it the way, what I always tell people, it's like, look, um, um, we've turned TV advertising into something that feels more like digital, less than TV. Right. And, and in every aspect. Um, um, and so, so I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll stop there. Um, um,
Speaker 1 00:16:36 Yeah, I'll give, I'll give a little bit of context on, on what Ethan had mentioned earlier. Um, interesting thing for us was that we, we were not actually part of the team that was managing the television advertising, but we were extremely aggressive on data-driven online marketing. In fact, um, we were, I would say, I would say that probably one of the most sophisticated agencies back then was a quantitative that ended up getting acquired by Microsoft. And we were really, um, I think most of them would agree that we were the biggest pain in the ass client that they had, because I said, I don't want to test a $20,000 buy. I had a $200,000 monthly testing budget, and I wanted them to spend that $500 at a time. And they did not want to have to go out and buy. But if I could learn, if something worked for 500, why would I spend 20,000?
Speaker 1 00:17:31 And I can learn that much more spreading it out. And, um, so in the end we were, we, we, I think they, they liked us a lot because we, we really push them and push their capabilities and that really ended up differentiating them. And, and it helped us a lot as well. But you can imagine then 2000 comes along in all of them, the numbers you're talking about, the, the budgets that it required to get into television, the, um, the, the, just the, the budgets on creating the ads. Uh, I don't know what the numbers were, but I was, I was just cringing. Um, anytime I got around those numbers, cause I knew we would have no feedback loop on how effectively it was. And, um, and ultimately we ended up pulling the plug on the television advertising, but, um, yeah, very painful, expensive process.
Speaker 2 00:18:20 Yeah. Phillipe mentioned quarter million dollars. My recollection. It was, we were well into the millions when back then, but as a long time, just, just
Speaker 1 00:18:27 On the creatives. Yeah. Yeah. And that was, and that was, I mean, it used to be the fortune 500. That was the big switch where all the dot comes, you know, just like suddenly unit economics, economics in general went out the window. And, um, but we, we had this, we had this team that had literally managed a customer acquisition costs down to the, down to the lowest acquisition cost for any publicly traded company for a free registered user. We were averaging in, um, embedded widgets that, that brought our advertising, our acquisition costs for an activated, registered user for to 50 cents, you know, where, um, that most of the others were in the hundreds of dollars for, for a free registered user. And so you can imagine for, for Ethan and I to be looking at those numbers on the, uh, on the kind of brand advertising side, it was something that we, we were cringing and, uh, and, uh, anyway, we survived it.
Speaker 1 00:19:22 We ultimately sold the company and did fine with it, but, um, but it takes me, so we've been in the client choose, um, you know, on, on all of that. And so Jamie, you obviously, uh, in looking at television, you've probably had a lot of the same concerns that we've had. You've been in performance marketing. Um, what, what is the relationship look like between you guys? How did, how did you, how did you start working together and, and really what, what are the, uh, what are sort of the goals of, of how you work together? Yeah,
Speaker 4 00:19:52 Absolutely. So you really, um, hit on it when you said, you know, performance marketing and measurement and all of those components, because those are so big for us. Um, but we're always looking to test is I can, I would say, um, and when we came across to tare and the whole background that they had in data and analytics and measurement, that was just such a huge component for us, that we, we recognize that we, we thought we could be successful on television for the piece of storytelling. And we could tell our brand story, we could tell our product story. And, um, it was a natural extension, just like Felipe mentioned of what we were doing online. You know, we were seeing, we're seeing video, you know, work for us. And it's really great that, um, we've been able to leverage some of the similar content to what we have running on digital channels in television, in a sense.
Speaker 4 00:20:48 Um, so that's been a big piece for us. It was a natural extension. It was a great way to storytell and then the fact that we can actually measure it was every performance marketers dream. So you can really understand that you're able to gain this awareness, this credibility that you get by going into TV, right. Highly recognizable brands are in television. So it was a channel where you have that credibility component, but then there's also this other piece of like, you can make it a performance marketing channel because you have the data in almost, you know, near real time to actually tell you what you need to do to optimize without it taking months at a time to do so. So that was really what drew us to tuttare, uh, because that was their whole philosophy. Um, and so we've been working together for now about eight months and it's been, you know, just, uh, a great success. And, um, it's been exciting to really see TV as a performance marketing channel.
Speaker 2 00:21:48 So Jamie, you're doing this all through a pandemic and I, you know, I guess I really want to know, like, how has TV impacted growth during the pandemic as a channel? Has it been a big part of your success through this?
Speaker 4 00:22:03 Yeah. You know, the last 12 months, um, at VRE have definitely been, um, a lot of, a lot of growth, a lot of, um, exciting times, uh, since one of the main reasons is honestly simply because, you know, there was a natural gravitation towards active wear towards comfortable clothing in the last 12 months. And as a business, we were honestly fortunate enough to have that demand coming our way. So we had that, you know, in our favor. And then in addition, you know, we have great partners. We honestly are, you know, constantly looking to, um, test and learn and pivot. And so that's been a huge thing for us, I'd say in the past year, but then also, you know, from a TV perspective, TV has been a component of that because it embodies all of that testing, learning, pivoting, dynamic nature of the past year, um, because we were able to test it actually in Q4, um, was when we launched and started to see some, some metrics, you know, right out of our pilot and then ultimately optimize in scale. So, um, it's a channel where, you know, you can have a little bit of pre-planning you go into it, you know, when, when you want to start testing, so you'd have to make your concepts and your creative, but, um, TV has helped to contribute to that growth because it's an additional part of our user journey. And that whole user journey is ultimately, um, you know, a big lever in driving our overall channel growth.
Speaker 1 00:23:29 And is it a quick kind of what's the blend between sort of the brand goals with that? Cause like you said, I mean, there's, there's a lot of credibility in being in television versus that, that, that trackable, direct marketing component of it. How, how much do you weigh those?
Speaker 4 00:23:44 I mean, at the end of the day, you know, we are looking at TV as a performance marketing channel because we have the data at our fingertips. So it is very much so a, a KPI driven channel. Um, it's one of those where we're measuring, we're looking at user growth, we're looking at, um, you know, sales growth, but we're also saying you want to stay true to the brand because this is a place where you have, you know, customers like total undivided attention for 15 or 30 seconds. And you're able to tell your story. So you want to make sure that like, you're getting your brand awareness. So it's, it's really like kind of like the growth pinnacle where you've have brand awareness and performance marketing, user sales growth coming from one place. Um, and so for us, while we optimize towards, you know, sales and overall user growth, we're also recognizing that it is generating awareness.
Speaker 2 00:24:38 Can you tell us a little bit more about like the specific KPIs that you're using in the, in that to measure?
Speaker 4 00:24:44 Yeah, absolutely. So tuttare has enabled us to be able to surface some of those KPIs. Um, some of them include, you know, who's coming to your website, how many people are coming when they see a spot, um, how much does it cost to get them to the website? Um, how, how many sales, how much engagement, um, is coming to your site. And from there, you know, we're able to, to understand the same similar metrics to what you can on a digital channel, uh, the costs associated the efficiencies, um, that it comes with it and, and ultimately use that to help us make decisions.
Speaker 1 00:25:19 So Phil, how are you able to provide that kind of information?
Speaker 2 00:25:23 Yeah. A lot of data is the, is the short answer. So, um, I'll give you one example, right? So traditionally and sadly, still the loads of kind of like, you know, the, the older brands, they, they will track and measure their TV campaign based on Nielsen data, which by the way, is kind of a small panel of about 40,000 manually. I literally, I say manually surveyed households that literally send a letter with $2 in it and say, I can show this to you. And they say, when you fill out these three questions, I'll send you another $3 cash back. Uh, and, and so, so we all know what that measurement will look like. And you say it is in the most respectful way. So to juxtapose it, right. And as an example to your question, uh, we will not use that type of data, but we will use, um, uh, data that comes for example, from setter boxes.
Speaker 2 00:26:15 And he has over 30 million households. We will use smart TV data, right. And data from, for example, Vizio, LG dataset, uh, TV sets, where we literally can see which household and the IP addresses that have been exposed to. And this gives if you're yet, right. And of course we can then, right. If you think about it, what I've just said is that it's like I described TV as an online medium. It's not offline anymore. And as soon as I, that I changed the paradigm, right. Because now I can start practicing, uh, with credibility, a digital type of measurement. Right. And so look in the end, uh, we have a lot of data. We have a lot of what we would call first party data, right? So obviously we're deeply integrated in this example with Diore right. And so across all of our clients, um, the tire will ingest millions of data points on a daily basis, right.
Speaker 2 00:27:09 Uh, site visits, search conversions, uh, basket values. And, um, just to echo what Jamie says, then, you know, we can, we can give kind of like a, uh, a direct response, like outcome of the campaign, you know, what is your cost per visitor? Uh, we can give something more deeper down the funnel, right? A return on ad spent. Um, we can kind of give you an insight in terms of what was immediate people who see the ad. And just like in the old days, they dialed the one 800 number by the guilt of the theory side and they buy something. But we can also say who saw the ad? And then a week later when they go, you know, get ready in the morning, they're like, oh, what was that company again? I'll go check them out. We can see that delayed response. We can see that the whole way into helping people understand what's view true versus incremental.
Speaker 2 00:27:56 And this is a little bit more sophisticated, but the reality is such as that when people buy Fiori, they've probably been, they probably learned about VRE from multiple sources, not just TV and by the way, not just Facebook, even word of mouth, word of mouth is a form of marketing. Right. And so we will actually help, uh, people like Jamie understand, look, those people have been touched on TV by TV, but it was maybe not the only source, but this group of people, you know, without me is kind of like cohort. But these people, they truly came because the only reason they came because they saw your TV ads, and if you had not run your ads, they would not have shopped. And so, so it's, um, a lot of data, um, um, and obviously, you know, clever methodologies. And if I may say so.
Speaker 1 00:28:41 Yeah. And I mean, it makes sense that with the Shizam background, the true car background, where you're, you're just from those digital experiences. I mean, that's a, that's a really interesting kind of move into something like this. But I mean, if you take it from the tech perspective, you know, the founder's perspective of tackle big problems, like it is, it's a huge problem with all the money that's going into, into television advertising without that kind of attribution or really loose attribution. That's, uh, it's really cool that you've, you've decided to tackle that I'm just
Speaker 2 00:29:17 Recently came to the conclusion myself, oh my God, your, your career is all about that. That's going to be part of my eulogy, you know, uh, but look what, uh, does, and this is, I think this is a bigger kind of picture for, um, forget about the tare, right? Just think about advertising or TV advertising in general is create this, what I call outcome marketing world, right? Where, um, you run a campaign, you measure it blazing fast, obviously be great accuracy. And then at the same speed you make adjustments. And, and, and as long as it's kind of, let me say ROI positive, even if it's only 1%, you just do more and it's kind of rinse repeat circumventing money, essentially. It's a, it's a positive circle of kind of, you know, of or virtual circle of positive results. And that's really, I always say that is the industry that we pay part of. Um, and, and that is the new standard for any brand in any channel to aspire for. Yeah. So
Speaker 1 00:30:28 One, one thing, sorry, anything, I'll let you, you and Jamie, back in here in a second, I'm just, I'm geeking out on this a bit. My, um, I, uh, I just got done building a house and, um, it was really an interesting process when it came time to install the TVs and, and hook up cable and all these things that my contractor was, uh, was like, no, you have to get cable or satellite. And, um, I'll, I'll Mount the TVs for you. I was like, yeah, that's good. I don't want to Mount TVs. You got you go ahead and do that. And then he's like, okay, the TVs are mounted, but you got to get them hooked up. It's like, no, I'm, I'm all done. Um, cord cutter. It's, uh, it's, I'm just doing YouTube TV. And as you make that move, it's just really interesting.
Speaker 1 00:31:10 Cause he's like, you can't do that. Like try and talk me out of it as like some something that's not good about it, but it now for me really is a purely, a purely digital experience. And, um, and I, and again, I think once, once you have that digital experience now, now it's really not that different from, you know, watching something on the computer and the tracking that can be there. And so do you, do you, do you think we're still, you think it was still like as, as the technology evolves, there's still a lot of room for improvement or do you feel like what you've cracked to this point is, is as good as it's gonna get?
Speaker 2 00:31:45 I, I think we're in the first minute, over a 24 hour day, I did that as the massive opportunity. Like when two people talk about TV or TV advertising being that, uh, that, that first of all, that is not true. The industry is 70, $75 billion per year in the United States alone. Uh, it's not going down much, if anything, maybe slightly edging up. It's what happens inside. It's kind of the turmoil of the switch. Right. And so, um, uh, look, um, we w what's really interesting is, and data doesn't lie, right. Um, as much as we are probably all watching streaming TV, the data actually will suggest that the majority, the vast majority of that easily 85% is still cable and broadcast. I it's not me. Right. But it's the right.
Speaker 1 00:32:36 Again, the difference for me is that I'm now streaming.
Speaker 2 00:32:40 Yeah. So, so, uh, yeah, and then the, the, you can see the Venn diagram, uh, remarkably actually very little overlap. So that makes you kind of a little bit of an exception. Uh, and so, uh, the opportunities, uh, that come about as a, as a young company, as a startup company, to help people understand both worlds Bridget, between the two worlds, making them holistic, and one is something we love. Right. Um, so, so, yeah, and
Speaker 1 00:33:07 I just, and I just think just to reiterate one, one more time though, that I th I think there is something special about TV. I'm, I'm, I'm pretty sure that at no point in my life, if I stood in my kitchen humming, uh, some something that I saw on the internet where, you know, you see a TV commercial, and you can't get it out of your head, because it is so immersive between sound and visual and there's special. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:33:31 Yeah. And then kind of thinking about radio, um, sort of radio advertising as well, but, but it's, it's most kind of like at the workplace or when you're driving, it's not, when you're kind of, you're busy with something else, rest, Stevie. I mean, like guys like me watch the super bowl for the ads, not the games. Right. So that's kind of the extreme example, so yeah. Yeah. It's definitely a more immersive experience. So Jamie, you know, I feel we talked about the virtuous circle of positive results. Tell us about the positive results in the success and how that's contributing to.
Speaker 4 00:34:00 Yeah, absolutely. So, um, we started testing TV in October of last year and, um, uh, one of the, one of the things I'll focus on really is kind of like the creative optimization and all of that success, honestly, because that, to me, some of the most fascinating pieces of this, um, and we went to the market with three different concepts, you know, product brand, um, concepts, all different. One of them was totally made for television. The other two were everything was made in house by our creative team. So like Phillipe said, it's not something that, you know, we're going out, working with a massive production company. It's totally in-house. Um, and we leveraged some content we already had that was already high quality enough, really great for the product. And then we went out and actually made a whole concept around television. And so we tested streaming, we tested linear, we were testing everything.
Speaker 4 00:34:55 Um, and like he mentioned, within a few weeks, we were getting data that we could actually, um, see people coming to the site. How much does it cost to get them there and being able to optimize and say, actually next week, we're not going to, we're not going to run that, um, this one's, this is doing better. This is resonating better with this audience. And so those types of things were really dynamic and really possible. And so once we started doing that within our first few weeks, we noticed like a 30% drop in our cost per visitor, simply from optimization. And that's something that, you know, if you're a performance marketer, you're like, oh, great, perfect. I'm able to, what I'm seeing when I'm learning is actually working in practice as put it into place. And so these are the KPIs we're monitoring weekly or calls with tartare and amongst my team, and from now, from that pilot testing period, until now we can scale it up and it's a channel for us, it's a integral part of our overall marketing mix.
Speaker 1 00:35:53 So I have to assume you were pretty skeptical or somewhat skeptical going into this in the beginning. Like how confident were you that this, this would actually work the way that Phillipe was and Philly and his team were saying, yeah,
Speaker 5 00:36:10 I think it's a great question. I'm curious myself. I am a very
Speaker 4 00:36:14 Big believer in data and analytics, and you can ask them, I have asked a million questions about this. So, so we know going into it, you always are like, I just, I've got to see it. I've got to understand it. Right. Am I going to see the numbers? Um, so, so it was, you know, once we, once we were going in, it was like, okay, we're gonna put, we're gonna give ourselves all the options. Right. We're going to, no, we're not going to put one bed on one type of creative. We're not going to put what all of our eggs in one basket. Um, because I think I'm a true believer in testing. You got to have that variety and so going into it, um, that was the whole mindset. And I think, you know, we went out at honestly pretty positive because we've chatted with other brands that were seeing success as well.
Speaker 4 00:37:01 And so, um, we had an optimistic view, but we wanted to see the data. And once we started to see that optimization, like I mentioned, that drop in our costs per visitor, things like that. You were like, okay, there's obviously a direct correlation, um, between this and in performance that you see on your website. And so, um, it was, it was honestly a learning and it continues to be because it's, it's such a, coming from a digital background is such a new, new channel. You're still learning about, you know, the programming space, everything that it comes with it. And, um, that's like we bring the brand, we talk about the brand to the Totara team. The charting tells us about the market, um, TV and the programming. And so, um, that piece has been, you know, real collaboration. Um, and it's, it's honestly something we learned about every day, but I'd say we were really happy that we were able to be optimistic and not have our, not have our dreams crushed a little bit, but we were, it was really great, great
Speaker 1 00:38:00 Experience. Is it true that sometimes the, the riskiest bets are the ones with the biggest upside and, you know, I mean, if television can work, it's such a scalable medium to work within. If you can track an ROI and get a return and others aren't being as sophisticated than, than you, you're probably find a lot more opportunities versus if you're doing paid search or something, pretty much everybody competing for that word is going to be pretty sophisticated in how they're deciding if they can afford that word or not. So I'm curious for both of you guys, is this, is this something that like VRE sort of the perfect fit for the medium, or is it something that, uh, that probably a lot of others could, could benefit from television that aren't with with some of these new tracking opportunities that tuttare brings to the table? Either one of you can jump on that one,
Speaker 4 00:38:54 I'll go first and then I'll just pass it to Felipe because I'm sure he has. He has definitely, <inaudible>
Speaker 4 00:39:05 Just start off. I would just say that honestly, you know, having, having done this firsthand, I'd say if you're a brand that, you know, you have a sprained story or a product story to tell in your, you know, ultimately trying to sell a product or, or a service or whatever it might be to a consumer, um, TV and streaming are really helpful in my perspective for everything through the marketing funnel, does that dual purpose of brand awareness and performance. And also it's one of those things where if you're seeing success on, you know, video on your digital channels, then it's probably makes sense to test TV. Um, and so that's, to me an indicator of, you know, if you're going to see to see success on this channel, that's
Speaker 1 00:39:53 A great point. And so many people are seeing success in video these days. It shows the potential of who, who can make that next jump. And this is kind of a good double-down on video success. So what do you think Philly
Speaker 2 00:40:05 I, Jamie and Jamie articulated? Well, it is, it is for everybody, right? It's, it's time to kind of like troll away the aura that TV has. And you just got to look at it at, at like, like any other marketing channel, which you ought to at least try. And so, um, and so if I, if I actually look at the tare and kind of the client portfolio, um, in that we have all industries, right, we'll have a company like they.com and FinTech, or we'll have a company like rural health in health care. And, and, and, and of course, there's, there's fury right? In, in apparel, we have all industries and more importantly, we have all stages. We have companies that are, you know, like a will and trust, which is very new kind of series a maybe series B. I hope I got that right.
Speaker 2 00:40:53 Uh, startup company. And then at the other end of the thing, we have certain product lines within the CPG companies, right. Or, or a fiber who runs a Superbowl ad publicly traded. And so surely TV is for everybody. Um, I, I like what Jamie said about, you know, you kind of see what you get in digital video and not a good tell-tale for us, that we kind of anecdotally observed is actually your Facebook or social media spent. Uh, if you think of true, right. Facebook and Instagram ads, and they're, they're actually very similar to TV ads in the sense that they are demand generating. Right. Educate people about the product that they didn't realize was not a high intent customer. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's not like search, right. Which is kind of like the mind harvesting. Right. And so typically, and again, like, I would almost say, don't quote me on that, but I'm going to say myself now.
Speaker 2 00:41:44 Right. But, but typically when we see a company spending around 200,000 a month, it's a telltale that there's a good chance. You can acquire new customers at the same, possibly lower marginal cost and use the word marginal very deliberately. Right. It's kind of that incremental price you pay for getting one additional customer right now that it's not an average. Um, uh, and on top of that, and this is what Jamie said. So while it's that, you, you get, you get all the performance and then you get all the brand and the halo and the, the immersive experience. So devious for everybody. Uh, I'll I'll come back to what I said in the very beginning. It's no longer that fortune 500 privilege TV advertising is getting democratized, which is going to go beyond here. I have this vision or dream where every small company, every mom and pop store, every SMB in the United States will take out a TV ad in the next five years. I'm just like they buy Google AdWords or Facebook ads, but they can do so they can, because they can do it in small doses while on the back of streaming TV, they can measure, they can react to it. I think this is great. Great times ahead.
Speaker 1 00:42:55 And so you mentioned earlier about kind of the small budgets on both the production side and on the actual media testing side that, that somebody could get getting started. What can you reiterate? Like, what's the, what do you think is kind of the smallest amount that to know if that medium can work for you, that you could, like, you know, obviously somebody went in with $50, then they're there. They're not going to know if that made him worse, but they're not going to know Facebook works either. So, um, is sort of a realistic number to go into it, to where you actually give it a, um, a reasonable amount of testing to, to, to let you know, if that's a channel that you can double down and scale to the potentially millions of dollars, if it, if it, yeah,
Speaker 2 00:43:35 Yeah. Look, um, we, as a company set for tomorrow, we will say about 75,000 to a hundred thousand dollars. And, and, and the way we got to this number is kind of like twofold one. We want to make sure at the end of the journey, we have some statistical significance, diverse outcome on a test or a pilot, like, well, we're not sure selves. And then of course everybody's looking at like, thanks. You know, the second piece is also a pilot is not kind of a one trick pony, right. You kind of want to do a few different things, so you can, you know, uh, compare and rank and decide from there. And so, right. So you, if you're going to do a streaming TV, maybe you want to test a few different publishers, not just to be DV, but right. Roku to be who you're going to do a few and then see, Hey, one of the, of those five, two or mediocre three, we're actually solid let's build.
Speaker 2 00:44:28 Right. So anyway, long, long answer to a simple question, um, that's kind of like the, uh, the, the starter kit TV budget, I would say. So with that Philly, I wanted to go back to something that Jamie said, she talked about really the intentionality in their initial run with three different types of creative to go out with how important is the creative mix in this process? And like, how do you coach your clients? So that, I mean, it's, you know, garbage in, garbage out, how do you make sure that the creative side of it is, is upholding its side of the bargain? Yeah. You know, it's interesting cause we don't do creative production, right. We don't have directors and actors and whatever it is. And so, um, um, but, but what we do have, unlike the production companies are feedback loops, feedback loops, right. Where I have to create a switch one, does those better or not so well.
Speaker 2 00:45:17 And so I can tell you right now, the, a great creative will outperform a good creative with a factor two to three X. And this is not an exaggeration. We can show with data that if you put a URL kind of like watermarked into your creative, we not, not, not too big, but just quietly in there that can drive and afford the exact number. So for the 20 to 30% improvement, there are big numbers on, let's say a million dollar per month budget. And so, so we, yeah, we will just chase our clients to continuously try to determine the winning creative. That's funny, that's essentially how I started my career with Sean is, uh, I w I was literally testing ad banners against our, our, our default set every week. And, uh, I see him smiling because he knows that we have to, we, can't not talk about the pull, my finger ad that outperform.
Speaker 1 00:46:15 I was actually laughing at your title at the time his title was concept strategist. It was the.com boom. There was a lot of craziness, but, um, but it,
Speaker 2 00:46:31 I mean, I think even back then the challenge was to keep the creative, fresh and new. Um, but with TV, it's certainly a heavy, heavier lift because it it's, I think it's just harder to, to build that creative quickly, but it sounds like, it sounds like that's changing. Yes. I know. Surely the first, your first creative or set of creatives, you know, it may feel expensive. You know, even if it's come down from a quarter million to, let's say $50,000, that's still a lot of money. The good news is twofold. One, these big concepts, they actually tend to last for a long time. We have competence look at calm again, or, uh, companies like cruelty or creators from two years ago are actually still fantastic creatives today. So you don't unlike, let's say Facebook, you don't have to refresh them that much. The second positive that I was going to mention is that the small changes can make big differences by for viewers having its internal team. That's a gift from golf, right? Because the, the ability make a little tweak measure with, I dunno, $10,000 as it is. It's fantastic. And so look, you're never done. There is, there is no winning strategy, but to keep pushing. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:47:40 I mean, it's, it's, it's interesting to just kind of play play back for a second on what Ethan was talking about, because banners were such an easy kind of creative to create. We literally created 20 per day and would push them at lunchtime, all go out to lunch as a team, make a bet on that. That would
Speaker 5 00:48:01 Be what would be the order of performance.
Speaker 1 00:48:03 And then everyone comes back from lunch and see who won. And what we learned was no one had any clue what was going to win. So you just, you kind of could only figure it out through tests,
Speaker 2 00:48:13 By the way, this is often how I challenged clients. Like if, if ever, like, I'm always, luckily I'll still take bets. I'll be like, how about we put a hundred dollars on the table and we'll talk in two weeks. And the worst is that you can tell me, I told you so, right. We joke. But like seriously, the, uh, we, Sean was pushing for this 20, 20 banner tests a day. And I was racking my brain as the concept strategist to come up with with those ideas. And one day I, I literally put my hand on a piece of paper and I started doodling around my finger and I just wrote, pull my finger. And we, it was a joke. It was, cause I couldn't come up with anything else. And another guy who works with us came running in the room and he was like, pull my fingers out, performing Homer, which was our other banner that we couldn't. And it was just, I mean, it was like, you
Speaker 1 00:49:01 Got a little, a little sound icon, so people would like click it to see what I mean, but we were, we were a fun and games kind of website. So it was not like totally attracting the wrong audience. And uh, yeah, it was, it was,
Speaker 2 00:49:15 It was very funny, but, but it, the pushing creative, like that is really important. And I agree like having an internal team like that, uh, is really an important factor if you want to move quickly
Speaker 1 00:49:26 And, and for, for what it's worth, ultimately our S our big step change was when we, when we actually moved from the banner medium to saying what's a better way to acquire these customers. What's a more immersive way to acquire these customers. And we, we ended up, uh, launching a, an embeddable game that spread virally to tens of thousands of websites and, and started the gameplay experience and drew them in. And that, that's what pushed us to a top 10 website in the world. But, um, but I think it's a really good proxy to this. It's like, if video is working, how do you, how do you kind of think through why it's working and then think through how, how you extend into, into another medium and, um, you know, in this, in this case television, and, um, it's a, it's a really interesting path to go down. And so I asked Jamie, I asked about kind of what are the other, uh, maybe sectors that could do well. Um, but when, when you look at e-commerce in general, do you feel like every e-commerce company should, should basically be testing this at this point? Or, um,
Speaker 4 00:50:32 I think, you know, if you have like the, the content and the ability to be nimble and an interest in this type of performance marketing, then absolutely. It's a great thing to test, um, to figure out what works for you. Because like Phillipe said, everyone's different every, you know, every brand has a different feel to it. And so there, isn't a perfect formula. Everyone has their own and can learn so much. And so, yeah, I don't, I don't see the harm for sure, as long as you just go into it and say, I'm going to give it the time that it needs to test it. I'm going to give it the space to learn about it and understand the KPIs. Um, then that's really setting you up for success.
Speaker 1 00:51:13 And the other way to look at it is you're not, you're not actually risking $200,000 or $75,000. If that's your kind of like testing budget going into it, you're risking the amount you lose on that $75,000. So maybe, maybe you get, you know, 66% back. So you actually only lost then twenty-five thousand dollars. So it's, it's not, it's not quite, you're risking the whole, the whole thing there. And that to learn if there's this massively scalable channel for $25,000, like, I, I think even a fairly early stage startup probably probably would be wise to take that kind of a gamble occasionally. Um, but I, I mean, I guess another good follow on question to that though, is like, what, what do you think is like what, now that you have it there, what do you think is the most challenging part of kind of just managing that, you know, it's, it's obviously on top of everything you were doing before this there's, there's, there's other parts to this. So what's, how does, how does it add complexity to your life?
Speaker 4 00:52:14 Yeah, I mean, it's, it's complexity, but I think it's good complexity because this is what we want. Right. Um, but honestly, it's the way I think about it is it's not a set it and forget it type channel. It's not like you figured it out. You're good. Let it go. You know, it's, it's, you have to treat it just like you do every other digital marketing channel. You have to say, I'm watching this weekly. I can preplan a little bit based on what I know works, but I also have to be ready to see what's going on in the market. I mean, this past year is a great example of that, right? Like we have to be able to be nimble. We have to listen and look at performance. Um, so it does require Headspace and still time and resourcing to dive into that data and make these decisions on a weekly basis. It's not, you know, something that you're looking at on a monthly basis, if you're talking about, you know, more traditional print and things like that, um, this is, this is something that, um, is exciting because you have that data, but that just means the time you have to free that time up to make sure that you're ready to make those decisions and optimize accordingly. Honestly. Awesome.
Speaker 2 00:53:23 So I had teed this question up just for Jamie, but I think since we have a little bit of time, I'm going to ask you both this question. And so, um, we always like to ask, what's the one thing you feel you understand about growth now that maybe you didn't understand this well, yeah, maybe a year ago or eight months ago in your case. So Jamie, can we start with you?
Speaker 4 00:53:45 Yeah, it's kind of a similar theme to what I was just touching on. It's like, there's this really important balance. I think between being proactive and being reactive, right. With growth and you can be proactive and you can preplan and you can to stay ahead of consumer trends and to stay ahead of the next best channel. I think that's important. That's really what, what fuels you forward. Um, but you can't, you know, just credit the fact that there's always going to be a little bit of reactivity in everything that you're doing, um, because major shifts happen either in, or out of your control. And, you know, I think TV is a great example of that. Um, we, we went into last year having the idea of, you know, eventually we want to test TV. It is a plan of something that we want to do.
Speaker 4 00:54:32 And then, you know, we started to see the demand last year and the, the brand momentum and overall recognize like, okay, if we can get this creative, we can do this. Um, and let's react, let's move quickly. And so getting in there and then moving quickly, along the way, introducing new creative within a few months, things like that is like, is really what's going to contribute to, you know, growth at the end of the day. It's not being as organized, as prepared as you possibly can. It's being able to be nimble and reactive. Um, because sometimes it takes, you know, speed, um, and agility.
Speaker 2 00:55:09 Yeah. By the way, I think Jamie hit the nail on the head. So just to really make sure that we get everybody confused. So I'm going to give a slightly, um, the opposite answer.
Speaker 5 00:55:20 Um, <inaudible> I think
Speaker 2 00:55:30 You, you gotta be agile, but on the other hand, there's also, uh, and I'm actually, I just, I w I wish I could name the client, but we wouldn't be fair, but I literally, on Monday I had a conversation with somebody who just got onto TV and, and there were, let's say, $30,000 in and look, it wasn't, it wasn't the, uh, hot start. Just, let's be honest about us. Just kind of like, you know, no, no great like separating signals. The average was kind of like out of the targets in terms of CAC and things like that. And it's like, you know, the alarm bells went off and I get it, you know, it's like, you know, because of course it's TV and because it's TV, the CEO and the board, and everybody's looking at it. If it had been an adverts campaign, nobody would have bought it.
Speaker 2 00:56:14 Right. So panic. And so literally the call went like this and it's like, okay, we get it. We'd be deeply, but hold steady. See a true, right. You, you, you, I want you to see to the full a hundred thousand in this case, it was, and, and, and allow us to work. It's like flying a plane or sailing a boat. If you sail a boat, if the wind shifts a little bit directly, you're not going to be turning on the real or the, you know, the tiller, she gives you on a certain course. And, and sometimes it's to not, to not react to the micro movements. Right. Which is, which is very opposite to being agile. I, I, I realize that right. Uh, do not react to it. Um, um, give it a chance. Uh, and, and by the way, this, again, this has nothing to do with the Tara. This has nothing to do with TV advertising. Think in general,
Speaker 1 00:57:07 One, one thing between the telltale references and, uh, the sailing references, Ethan and I spend at least an hour a day talking sailing, so, right. Yeah. I actually just signed up for Transpac 20, 23. So I will be on a boat sailing to Hawaii and wow.
Speaker 2 00:57:29 You can see me, but I'm bowing, you know,
Speaker 1 00:57:33 And Ethan's a hundred times better sailor than I am. So I was just
Speaker 2 00:57:36 Happy to get my boat in the water. Cause we have seasons here on the east coast. But, uh, but yeah, I mean, once he mentioned sailing, Sean, you know that, like now that's the only, that's the answer that we're going to sorry, Jamie, but we forgot your name. <inaudible>
Speaker 5 00:57:53 I got it. No,
Speaker 2 00:57:54 But that, I think both of those are really, um, insightful answers for our audience. And I think it's kind of, I think that the similar point in both of those is that there is no one right answer. Um, but at the same time, you do have to take the time to, to see things out and you have to have to listen. You can be reactive to a point, but if you're over-reactive, you're gonna miss out on great opportunities too.
Speaker 1 00:58:18 Yeah. So my big takeaway, I think it relates to both of these as well. Um, uh, essentially, well, more, more to what Jamie said, the, um, yeah, I think that kind of speed and agility is super important and where you get the step changes is not always in an optimization and an existing channel. It really is when you, when you can get a new channel working an entirely new channel, but where your best chances are our emerging channels. And I know it's weird to think of TV as an emerging channel, but I think it is an emerging channel as a, as a trackable kind of direct marketing channel. There's a lot of dollars that wouldn't touch TV because they don't think of it that way. And so if you can get into TV before a lot of others and figure it out, and then the other thing that Felipe that said is, you know, we're just, we're we're day one in a very early stage as more and more chefs to digital TV.
Speaker 1 00:59:20 That you'll seem like that was going to happen 20 years ago, that it was going to be all about ITV and all this like web TV. But, but the truth is that like, we're, we're finally to the point now where so many people have Netflix and other things that it's not just, it's not a stretch to kind of think why would I not also be cutting the cord? And especially if I can, if I can watch everything streamed on TV anyway. And I think as you move in that direction with smart TVs, it's, this is going to get better and better and more and more trackable. And the fact that you can already test and optimize and really know the results that you're driving, you have to be, you have to be really sophisticated to do that today, but it, it essentially means that you're going to probably be able to get some pretty big margins because there's not a lot of dollars that are going into that medium in that way.
Speaker 1 01:00:08 And so that to me is probably my biggest takeaway from this conversation is that, um, I, to be honest, I w I would have been very much in the skeptical, uh, area that I had, uh, kind of asked you about Jamie. Like, how skeptical were you going in there? I don't, I probably would have had a bit more skepticism than that, but like, yeah. I mean, maybe it'll work, but come on. As you know, I mean, maybe just because I've, I, uh, I had that earlier experience where I felt a company had thrown millions of dollars, um, where it was really hard to define how that could be, uh, a measurable success. So, um, but I do, I have a lot more confidence that this is a good channel, and I think a lot of people should be, should be considering it.
Speaker 2 01:00:51 Yeah. One other thing to that, Shawn, uh, I think going back to something Jamie said, uh, said, if you have a brand story to tell, you know, TV and streaming comes valuable throughout the whole funnel, it's kind of an interesting shift, right? I mean, when we were doing TV back then it was going to build our brand. That was the sell now because of digital on the digital optimization side that Phil Phillipe is, is able to provide the brand is actually an extra benefit on top of the direct marketing piece. It's really, it's an interesting, it's a whole paradigm shift, and I think it's really interesting. So I've really enjoyed this conversation with you guys.
Speaker 1 01:01:24 Yeah. I felt, I felt like we could go on for quite a while, quite a while still, but I'm sure you guys have things to do. We're on a Friday here on the, on the recording. So, uh, uh, at the very least, if you're not packed with work, then maybe you want to get started with a weekend. Um, that's, that's kinda my situation, but, um, but, uh, really appreciate you guys taking the time and sharing what you're doing with VRE and tuttare and, um, amazingly those two names even go together pretty well. So have a great weekend and thank you so much and for everyone tuning in. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 3 01:02:01 Thanks. <inaudible>
Speaker 0 01:02:09 Thanks for listening to the breakout growth podcast. Please take a moment to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform and while you're at it subscribe. So you never miss a show until next week.
