Speaker 0 00:00 <inaudible> Speaker 1 00:03 <inaudible> Speaker 2 00:08 come to the breakout growth podcast where Sean Ellis interviews leaders from the world's fastest growing companies to get to the heart of what's really driving their growth. And now here's your host, Sean Ellis. Speaker 3 00:23 All right. In today's episode, we're going to be looking at Miro, which is a freemium SAS solution that helps distributed teams visually collaborate using an online whiteboard. So Meryl was founded in Russia in 2011. And then in late 2018, one of the top Silicon Valley VCs Excel partners led a $25 million funding round. So clearly they're doing something right. I'm really interested to dig in and see what it is that they are doing to drive all of this growth. So I'm going to be interviewing Yulia Malisha, who's their head of growth and self-service. She has a really strong data background and should be able to give us pretty meaningful insights into what is key to their growth success. So let's get started. Hey Leo, welcome to the breakout growth podcast. Speaker 5 01:19 Hi Sean. Thanks for having me. Speaker 3 01:21 Yeah, it's um, it's exciting to finally, uh, to finally do this with you. We've been, we've been meeting at conferences now for several years. So it's, it's cool to be able to sit down and, uh, I've watched your evolution of, of Miro from a distance. Uh, it's gonna be really neat to kind of dig into some of the details. So, um, before we dig into how you are approaching growth, can you explain a bit about what Miro is and what problem it solves? Speaker 5 01:46 Sure. So mirror is the online collaborative white boarding platform that enables distributed teams to work efficiently and effectively together on a variety of use cases like idiation and brainstorming, collaborative workshops, design and research, agile workflows, mapping and diagramming strategy and planning. So as you can imagine, it's a very horizontal product, but our core and power users across functional teams that are, consists of product managers, designers, engineers, backronym managers, and we have a freemium motto. So you can sign up and see and use mirror absolutely for free, invite as many team members as you want and have absolute free active boards at the same time. And when you need more boards, privacy settings, institutional functionality like frameworks or specific integration, you can upgrade into one of our four big plans. Speaker 3 02:39 <inaudible> wow. So, um, distributed teams at seems like that's, that's kind of more of a trend these days. Do you think that's, that's part of the, uh, the appeal of the solution is that as more and more companies move to distributed teams, they need something like this? Speaker 5 02:54 Yes, definitely. The market is growing and we, we see, we see it and we fill it. Speaker 3 03:00 That's great. So as I mentioned, and I've talked to you for years about what's been going on, but yeah. Um, you've, you've been at Miro for six years, I think I saw. And um, it wasn't until really late 2018 that you raised a big round of financing. Uh, it was from Excel. Is that right? Yes. Yes. Yeah. I mean, like a great venture capital firms. So clearly you guys are onto something. They don't just, uh, randomly invest in companies that you gotta be doing pretty well. So when did you begin to feel like you were onto something big? Was it, did you, did you see something in the data or just the, you know, in the pit of your stomach that you knew you were onto something big before you went and raised that money? Speaker 5 03:45 Um, that's a very good question. Um, I actually reflected and you know, I now cloud that the business won't grow because even when we were small and they user base were small, the customer love and feedback that we get always give us a sense that we are doing the right thing and solving their real problems. Uh, but as you've mentioned before, actually we realized that it's a very big opportunity. I think several years back when we notice trends like distributed teams and work first, um, digital and, and dog transformation. So when understood the scale, total addressable market of the problem we're solving, Speaker 3 04:25 are most of your customers, did they use something like this before or were they trying to collaborate non visually or what, what are they sort of moving from? When they switched to mural? Speaker 5 04:35 They use drill physical whiteboards. Um, and if they're distributed, you use the camera in front of the whiteboard. So you can imagine it's not an engagement set up for disability members at AU. And where does that a better solution? Speaker 3 04:51 Yeah, that's definitely like one way broadcast as opposed to people being able to probably work the whiteboard very hard to do through a camera work, a remote whiteboard. Um, so, and then, and then looking at your personal background, um, before you became head of growth, you led the data team. So do you think that data background has been pretty important to your, to your role as a, as the head of growth now? Speaker 5 05:16 Yeah, I joined the company as a product analyst. Um, and that love have the data. I think like data always inspired me for the best ideas. Hey, better cysts and what are the biggest opportunities we have for growth? It also house me to see a bigger picture and understand how different key metrics are connected. What are the levers and, um, data helps to make the right decision. And what I like about data, people, um, that you don't fall in love with ideas. You actually fall in love with what makes the implicant drive outcomes, Speaker 3 05:53 right? Yeah, it's, it's very hard to, uh, to, to drive improvement if you don't really understand what's going on. And so having, having that data background can be really important to, you know, kind of side note for anyone who's maybe getting started with their career, do you, if they aspire to one bid day be ahead of growth, do you recommend that they get really strong on the data side first? Speaker 5 06:15 I think it's important and vital 10 dissent, uh, the, the data flows and then you can estimate like the impacts, uh, to, to just to move faster. I think. Speaker 3 06:28 <inaudible> <inaudible> yeah. And I also think, especially in a startup that there's so much is, is driven off of kind of like hope and optimism and, and or, or total pessimism that being able to have data sort of kind of removes some of the emotion around decisions that can be really important decisions. Speaker 5 06:47 We have this data informed culture and from the very beginning it is very important for us to collect, um, like took a like importance on data that we need to understand how our business work. And it was very, very right investment. Speaker 3 07:04 Yeah, no, I, I could definitely understand that. So, but I have heard from a lot of B2B companies that, um, you know, that they don't really have the volume that maybe B to C companies have. So there's not as much data to work with. They can't run as high a velocity testing. Um, what, what if you kind of found with those challenges, any, any best practices that you can recommend? Speaker 5 07:28 We have what we call B2C to be motto. So, and you're absolutely right to be able to have and run those high velocity testing. You need to have a lot of data and we have like freemium model that allow us to do this or we don't have this problem for now. Speaker 3 07:45 Okay. So, so for really a high velocity testing model, maybe if companies really want to be able to do that, they might, if they're B to B, might think about introducing a F a freemium layer that that helps to increase that volume so they can, they can drive improvement off that. Obviously a big choice. So you don't just do it for the data. But, uh, that, that can overcome some of those data challenges. Speaker 5 08:05 Yes. Sometimes sometimes you can use just usability testing to check the ideas. If the thing that you don't have enough data and it's still very important, like it's important and you still get very good insights from their customers, from the users or just from the people. I would say ability Speaker 3 08:22 a plus in my experience, probably the most important data is, is around retention cohorts. And, uh, that's, that's going to apply even in a, in a low volume B2B. If people stop using the product, you can see that pretty quickly. And so maybe you can't run high velocity AB tests on a, on a page as much cause you're not getting volume going through. But the most important data is really are people using it? What are they doing, what, what the different cohorts look like over time. So given that data background, maybe you're in a better position to answer question than a lot of companies would be. Um, when you look at Miro success to date, what do you think have been the biggest drivers of that success? Speaker 5 09:04 Um, so I, I think I would collide three major factors. First is simple and intuitive product that solves real user's problem. That always was the main driver of our success, the market opportunity and special ed team and collaborative culture that we have inside the company. Speaker 3 09:29 And do you guys, do you guys do a lot of testing so that collaborative culture, I mean, what, what, what are you guys collaborating around just, just a more understanding the customer and continue to tweak the, um, the solution? Or is it, is it, um, collaborating around, how do we run tests that improve overall results or what can you maybe go a little deeper there? Speaker 5 09:50 But under collaborative culture, I mean, we always look not at the, like when I'd work in siloed and we don't optimize for local maximum, we always try to find the, the global maximum, understand what would be our paths. Um, so where's this growth? Um, we showed learnings across the organization, make sure we have a shared and understanding context show people can experiment having the same context in mind. So we don't do the same mistake twice. Speaker 3 10:22 Yeah, I think the, the shared learning in particular is something that, I mean, one of the things that I found that, you know, so much of growth you can learn pretty easily as an individual, but when you go and try to apply it in a company, often often you get pushback because people, you know, think priorities should be somewhere else and they don't agree that something should be tested. And so being able to have a shared understanding of what's happening and, and backed up by data, I think it could really help that, that cross functional collaboration. That's true. We all come across growth challenges. Um, and you've been there for six years. Have any growth challenges come to mind that, uh, that you've faced and, and if you could give a little context and an over how you overcame those challenges? Speaker 5 11:08 Yeah, sure. A lot of, a lot of challenges. Um, I think one of the most interesting maybe, um, we had the challenge that we had is to grow in product by reality. Uh, so how we actually can incentivize users to invite more team members into the product. Um, we had a trial motto at that time and the free plan was limited and the low was up to three team members only. So we'll look at things with the data, uh, to understand how our users behave and figure it out. That 30 days of trial period was not enough for different teams and use cases to finish one project and realize the full value that the product provides. And when the trial ends, they were not ready to buy and they don't grade it to the free plan phase, the limits and had to delete boards and users to fit into the limits. So it actually means that they have fewer reasons to come back into the products after they delivered all the information that they created there. So we started to experiment with the freemium motto with the free plan, with unlimited number of users. Uh, we started to do this with like 20% of our traffic, which shows countries where we're all out at first and got positive results, both like on vitality and users retention, use a true tension without loss and conversion to paid. So, um, and then we rolled out it to the whole user base. Speaker 3 12:38 Oh that's awesome. Do you, do you think that uh, that virality can happen when you don't have a free part of a solution? Speaker 5 12:48 Um, I haven't seen good examples on the market on that. Speaker 3 12:54 Yeah, it's actually I was having the conversation with somebody yesterday and they had, they made that claim that they've, they've read that virality really can't happen unless you have a, a free version. I think they read it in the book blitz scaling. And so uh, interesting to hear your story there. Cause there's kind of a, it seems to back that up a bit. Speaker 5 13:13 I have another challenge actually though we haven't still, we had and still have it. So the cannabis is actually the new four months and we are always in the process of finding the best way to onboard non visual thinkers into it. So we constantly talk to costumers watch how they're using the product and spearmint and this, one of the things that worked was a guide. So this is kind of learning inspire center with different templates, tutorial education materials like already goes into videos by use cases that will be able to dry it inside the product. And it also helps a lot to people to understand actually, um, how this product can work for what use cases and help them to overcome this like blank canvas state. Speaker 3 13:59 So I mean, it's interesting as you say that it's kind of a, I think one of the things that sounds like you guys do really well is define your target audience well, so defining as those distributed teams, those cross functional teams, but it almost feels like there's a at further, uh, refining down to visual people and maybe that's like 90% of the people out there. Maybe that's 2%, I'm not sure where the line is. So that could be a overly shrinking the market or that could actually be a pretty big piece of the market. But, um, yeah, I mean it's, it's interesting to kind of, you know, I guess until you solve that, then your target market should really be primarily trying to get those visual people. And then, uh, and then if you can onboard non-visual people and make them more visual, then that makes sense. Speaker 5 14:44 You get used to structured for months, like dog's spreadsheets, lights and kind of as this kind of more unstructured way to think and explain your thoughts. Um, but like, yeah, we also try to move to this, um, to help like visual thinkers to create a structured way to consume the content for their colleagues. And we released like the notes functionality. Uh, so people can create it like a board summary and other people can consume it easily. Speaker 3 15:15 You know, I think when we first met it was still called realtime board. So one, when did you guys change the name and then what led to that decision to change the name to Miro? Speaker 5 15:25 Um, you know, we, we always want to build an aspirational landmark, so we search for a name that is, is it to remember and can help us drive word of mouth and build a lot of brands. And Miro is actually like, mural was a Spanish painter and artist and his canvases reminders our boys with different shapes, objects and colors. And we want people to feel like they are at is while they're working on their regular things. Speaker 3 15:55 <inaudible> I won't ask how much you paid for that domain, but I've got to assume it wasn't cheap cause short domains are not easy to kit. Let's, let's kind of dig into a bit about how you guys are organized for growth. I know you're not just head of growth but you're also head of self-service. So kind of looking at those two roles. Why don't we start with you and just what's the, what's the scope of your responsibility? Speaker 5 16:20 Yeah, so we have like the self serve, our business and behind edge business as a head of self serve business and responsible for salsa for revenue growth that is setting they usage and revenue targets they did to find levers and opportunities and what is our strategy to achieve this growth. I'm also leading the product growth function including acquisition, activation, engagement, monetization and handraiser steams. Speaker 3 16:45 So you said the, the other group is called the touch group Speaker 5 16:48 type that should we call it working on enterprise deals? Speaker 3 16:53 So more enterprise. Yeah. And so, but I assume it's, it's pretty much the same product that they get onboarded onto. So the work that you're doing in the self service for onboarding probably helps that that other group as well. Speaker 5 17:05 Yeah, sure. So, um, the majority of the ways that sales team works with are already using the product and that is why we build on Henry's their team within the product that is helping to generate leads from the product for the enterprise team. And this is our shared goal and this is how we all like also work collaboratively together. And we also have a dedicated enterprise product team that is working on value creation for our enterprise customers. But activation team within the product who is focusing on onboarding flows also and board, like any type of new users. Speaker 3 17:41 And now do you have a, um, a customer success team as well or is that all done through the interface? Speaker 5 17:47 Oh yeah, we have our customer success team who is working with enterprise customers. We have like <inaudible> flows within the product, like for the whole user base. Speaker 3 17:58 Did you guys have a, sorry, have you answered this? I missed it. But do you guys have a separate marketing team or is growth and marketing really one, one group. Speaker 5 18:05 Yes. We have different separate teams. We have a product growth team and a marketing team including like growth marketing, enterprise brand and product marketing. But we partnered together and have shared goals. Speaker 3 18:16 Okay. And then you're, you're on the product growth side or on the marketing growth side. Product growth. Okay. Little slow here. So make sure I understand how it all fits together. And then what other teams do you find yourself? Uh, interacting with the most? Speaker 5 18:37 Oh, it's product like core product team. Um, and all like marketing teams. I interact with the sales leader like, and with go to market function. I interact a lot with the data team actually like, uh, almost, um, almost every function. Speaker 3 18:59 Ideally not legal, but besides that, Speaker 5 19:02 like even the legal, we, we have some, we have some initiatives and projects. Speaker 3 19:08 I'm sure. I was just joking. So, yeah. Um, and then have you found, obviously, you know, in the six years that you've been there, it's probably a very different looking organization today than it was before. Have you found that, um, it's become more siloed or have you guys been able to maintain the, I mean it sounds pretty cross-functional as you describe it. Have you found that it's, it's been hard to keep it, uh, aligned cross-functionally or is it, is it something that um, has not really been an <inaudible>? Speaker 5 19:44 Yeah, we kept one of our corporate like culture values is play as a team to win the world and it's very important to work on cross functional alignment. And I like the quote that over communication is enough communication. So as a distributed leadership we regularly meet once a quarter to reflect, plan and align on our company vision and strategy. What are the major growth plays and strategic initiatives. It's super valuable to sit in one room for one week and go through all the topics. Speaker 3 20:15 How often did you say you do that? Speaker 5 20:16 Once a quarter. Oh wow. Then we'd have a lot of processes, like regular processes like company one, Oh, Carrie's planning and attractions, all hands, regular one-on-ones with the leadership team and, but then like cross functional teams like just to make sure we have shared context and understand. Speaker 3 20:37 So it sounds like you're, you guys are super deliberate about fighting the, uh, the, the battle against becoming overly siloed and, and um, and that it's been pretty in Speaker 5 20:48 the product for like collaboration to increase understanding within different companies. So Speaker 3 20:55 yeah. So you've got to kind of live, live the live the promise internally area. You're sort of hypocritical. So do you guys have a North star metric? Speaker 5 21:05 Yes, yes. We have. Um, what's up with you about it on one of the conference and then within that, so we have a mission to empower teams to create the next big things by providing best solution for collaboration. And we came up that the like active collaborative voice is the metric that show us that the teams are getting value from using the product and it's also aligned with the mission we have. So it's active, collaborative boards. Speaker 3 21:37 Cool. I guess I gave you good advice. I like that. Um, uh, I wish I could take credit for the rest of the success you guys have had, but clearly, uh, clearly you guys have been putting all the hard work in advice is cheap and easy. Um, so, and then do you, so how, I mean I'm guessing that you do quite a bit of testing, but um, is most of that testing then, uh, somehow tied back to moving that North star metric? Speaker 5 22:05 Every team has actually as specific metrics that they, they're working on like a activation or conversion or like active users, but we also keep an eye on track, can be collaborative words and when we release in different functionality and features, we also keep in mind that we need to design the functionality and experience for collaboration, not for individual use cases Speaker 3 22:31 <inaudible> but so everybody can kind of map their, they're kind of more focused goals back to that North star metric and understand the role that they play in moving that North star metric. Speaker 5 22:41 I wish everyone can did, uh, but it would be, I think it wouldn't be not like real true if I will say that. Uh, but yeah, Speaker 3 22:51 in a perfect world that's what would happen. Speaker 5 22:54 Yeah. Yeah. But, but everyone can give you like a pretty strong relational how it actually implants. Maybe not in terms of like real numbers and percentage, but anyway, Speaker 3 23:04 do you guys track the number of tests that you're running in any given period of time or are you more focused on kind of quality tests or successful tests or, or just overall volume of tests? What w w how do you hold yourself accountable to keep trying to drive improvement? Speaker 5 23:18 Um, yeah, we did track the number of experiments we're on per month. So it's like we're running tens of experiments per month, but this is not our KPI. Like we're more focused how we can actually move the, um, the key are like cure results. Uh, and one our business metric. And actually sometimes, um, sometimes it's like some thing that they have to like 20 experiments to understand actually how to move this. Sometimes you, it's already pretty obvious, you know, like what to do and you have more quality tests but then it can give you like the beginning fix. Speaker 3 24:01 Let's uh, kind of look now at, at the big picture a bit to um, kind of that, that journey that the typical customer takes from discovering Mira to becoming a raving fan of it. Um, maybe we start with the beginning part of, um, what, what would be the typical role in an organization that would be the one who would discover Miro and how, how would they normally find out about it? Speaker 5 24:23 Oh, the journey of the team and the company in Miro starts from one user who search for a solution, for the specific use cases. And then when he or she gives the value, they start to invite the team and expense. So our power users are used designers and product manager and they are searching for a solution. Like for example, how to run a distributed in a retrospectives or how to create a user story map, something like that. Speaker 3 24:52 <inaudible> I can see designers in particular since you said visual people are the, are the ones who tend to really get it and some PM's are super visual as well. Yeah. The last, last PM I worked with was, was constantly mocking everything up. So, um, I can see how it would be useful on both sides. Um, and then what, at what point, like what, what do they have to kind of do with the product for it to really start to stick within the organization? Do they just use it themselves and hold some meetings or is there kind of a tipping point to where okay, there's now enough collaboration happening that they're likely to keep using it? Speaker 5 25:27 Yeah, so we have this activation metric and it actually ties back to the nursery metrics. So we define activation as the moment when the team has first collaboration. And it means that they have like five more, um, like <inaudible> more conversion to paid and more verb ability that they will stay in the product. Um, and we have a dedicated team that is focused on activation growth and they constantly experiment. And on this. So first session is super important. Um, and yeah, as more boards in session they have, they actually, the more sticky they become. Speaker 3 26:05 And so does that team that focus on activation, are they a part of the product team or are they part of your team or both. Okay, perfect. And then, um, and then, but, but they're just constantly, constantly experimenting to try to get people to that first collaboration. Speaker 5 26:24 Yes. The all onboard and flows and like invitation flows are under their control. Speaker 3 26:31 <inaudible> and then, so you talked about like virality being one of the, one of the goals with the, with the free version of the product. Um, when I, when I think about, uh, for B2B in particular, and I know you're B-to-C to be, but, um, does, are you, are you looking at sort of virality within an organization and virality between organizations and sort of, is that the same stuff that drives both or is there, they're kind of different activities that drive referral from company to company versus inside a company? Speaker 5 27:03 Yeah, the referrals a and viral loops are very important. I think like almost half of new users are coming from different types of invitation. It's very like natural for our products. Some people share their boards with colleagues or over their clients. Actually one of the persona does use it as a lot is there's consultants and different agencies that are working with other companies. So they're both like, um, kind of our source of acquisition for us because sometimes one freelancer work with big companies and like help help to onboard mirroring that companies by just working with them on their, on their use case. So, Speaker 3 27:42 and are you, are you able to track their kind of separate viral coefficient to where you would know if you could spend a lot more to acquire them? Speaker 5 27:49 Yes, and we actually dated and that is why we even have a separate consultant plan that, uh, like designed specifically for that persona and for their use cases. And we have a, I also have a team inside my team who is working to create a value for that, for that use case. Speaker 3 28:07 Do you find that, um, you know, like, so obviously something like Slack, if, if a team sort of, if you get 50% adoption within a team, Slack is probably not going to stick in the company because you kind of need to standardize on one communication platform. But I'm assuming that you guys don't necessarily need that level of internal adoption to be able to stick in an organization with that. Is that a correct assumption? Speaker 5 28:33 So some, like it's often starts with one team that started to use it internally for different, like their routines and their projects. And uh, sometimes we even like see that they're separate teams from one company and they don't even know that they are both using Miro. Uh, so it's pretty like you don't have to, we don't have to have like a big adoption, but then the companies to stay at the company because it could be local or used for different teams. Speaker 3 29:06 Yeah, that's right. That's really just one, one person who's holding meetings using it is probably, if they love it, it's, I assume it's gonna stick. Is that a good assumption? Yeah. Speaker 5 29:15 Yeah, that's true. Speaker 3 29:16 But obviously then, then the cool part is that you have all that expansion opportunity. If you can, if you can have a, a good motion that gets the people who attend their meetings to also then start to use it for meetings, then it may not be an overnight spreading across the company. But um, over time, I'm sure a big part of your overall growth factor is, is the internal expansion. Speaker 5 29:39 Yeah, you're absolutely right. So one of our engagement strategies is actually to how these every new invite T people to create their own board and invite their team, like as a, how we expand within the organization through this like cross functional use cases. Speaker 3 29:57 <inaudible> cool. So that mean that that's driving the internal expansion and then the external expansion sounds like the consultant to client loop is a, is a pretty cool loop to have in addition. And, and consultants tend to be pretty visual in their explanations. So they're probably pretty tight in the target that you described. Speaker 5 30:15 Yes, they love the frameworks. So they actually, uh, very like some of them are very good, thoughtful leaders and we can learn from them as well. Speaker 3 30:25 That's awesome. So I could ask you a ton of questions and keep going with you, but uh, to, to respect your time and everyone listening. Um, I wanted to end with just uh, when you, when you kind of look at the last few years, as I said, you, you've been there for six years, but just in the last couple of years, what do you feel like you understand about growth now that maybe you didn't understand even a couple of years ago? Speaker 5 30:48 What a great question. Um, so I think like two years, three years back when it wasn't an individual contributor and black, the overall team was small. I didn't think that the processes, the King right now, it helps a lot just to increase the transparency, visibility, clarity and velocity and hence the outcomes. And other thing is that growth is not about optimization. The numbers and why is way more important than what, so you have to understand user behavior or motivation and psychology Speaker 3 31:23 <inaudible> Speaker 5 31:25 and another major learning. And actually is that, um, to keep company grow, um, you need to grow personally. So personal growth is always the biggest channel and you need to learn how to build a team, set up processes, have a broader view and vision set up, ambitious but achievable goals, great innovative solution, et cetera. So, and I'm, I'm lucky to have a strong team inside the company and I also worked with leadership coach and a shutter. They cut him off and growth advisor, Iliana Berna to grow and learn from them. But yeah, Roth has never done. Uh, and I like this person. Speaker 3 32:03 Yeah, no, that's great. And I think that um, all of the things that your company is doing to support that cross functional collaboration and, and the culture that's built around the mission and the shared goal of moving that North star metric reduces a lot of the frustrations that, um, can easily creep into a head of growth role if you don't have the right, uh, kind of broader aligned team that's all believing in what you're trying to accomplish. So, um, hopefully that that's making your life not miserable. Like some, some heads of growth that I've spoken to. So some of the key takeaways that I have from, from this conversation. Um, you know, I think, you know, one of the things that really jumped out at me at the beginning as a, as a, you were talking about some of the key drivers, um, being really clearly focused on who your target customer is about those distributed teams and, and part of that product market fit is having the expansion of distributed teams being something that, uh, is happening more and more. Speaker 3 33:03 And I mean, you guys are feeding that as well. When, when the right tools exist, it's a lot easier to be a distributed team. And so, and then further refining that targeting down to knowing that, um, visual people are the ones who are going to really get this. And obviously trying to figure out how do we appeal to the less visual people. But I think just being, being clear about who do you already click with immediately. And then you also talked about the solving a real problem and having an intuitive, uh, elegant solution to, uh, to, um, address that problem and then, you know, on top of that. So that's gonna help to drive those retention cohorts. And if you can't retain you, you really can't grow in the long run. And then, but on top of those retention cohorts, being able to have the strong internal referral loops and external referral loops, the internal referral loops of just, you don't need massive adoption, so you don't have to crack that, that huge challenge of how do I get everybody on this? But you can, you can get one person loving it and using it and probably get that to stick. And then the understand that external loop and how consultants feed and grow into additional companies. So when I look at all of those parts together, it's, it's not a big surprise that you have done really well with, with Miro and that you have a top venture capitalists backing you guys. And so congrats on all the success and excited to see where you take it from here. Speaker 3 34:30 It's amazing. Yeah, absolutely. And so, well, well, thank you again for, for sharing everything that you're doing and to everybody listening. Thank you for tuning in. Bye. Speaker 1 34:40 <inaudible>. Speaker 2 34:45 Thanks for listening to the breakout growth podcast. Please take a moment to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform, and while you're at it, subscribe. So you never miss a show until next week. Speaker 1 34:57 <inaudible>.